Involuntary Celibate (Incel) QUOTE: "I thought the division here was between PUAs and non-PUAs. But now I see this is wrong. People are motivated by personal experience. There are two types of personal experiences that make men MGTOW. One is being screwed over by the system, divorced. The other is being universally rejected by women (in the femisphere). It is sad that most men of the divorced group are so incapable or unwilling to understand the men of the rejected group. I now understand that these divorced men are not my allies, they are not on my side."
And, once again, here is why there never has been any coherent "men's movement" and never will be. Women who detest everything about another woman will still stand with her as a woman against all men, while men will argue each other to death over such weighty issues as "boxers or briefs" or "paper or plastic."
Men, in general, seem so obsessed with dividing the world into "us" and "them" that the inevitable end point of the process seems to boil down to "me" and "them".
There are far more than just two types of motivations for a man to unplug and decide to go his own way. And, there is no "the" division among the men on this board - there are thousands of divisions, even though we only have a little over 100 members.
MGTOW is not any sort of "movement", or at least no sort of mass or unified movement - just like the so-called "marriage strike" is no sort of strike at all, but the visible result of millions of men turning off to the idea of marriage, and becoming so disgusted with women who have the EMF (Entitlement Materialist Feminist) mentality that dealing with them is so unpleasant that aversion to them is stronger than the normal biological drive and attraction.
That alone says a lot about the quality of women we have as our possible choices of mates.
"Understanding" does not equal getting down with someone in their self-pity pot and wallowing in it with them. If that is how they want to spend their time, they are welcome to do that, but the rest of us have better things to do with our time and our lives.
I think there is a third group which is far larger among MGTOW than either of those mentioned above - men who realized that the system was rigged against them and opted out of playing the rigged game.
I have a certain degree of empathy for divorced men who have been screwed over by the system, but it is limited. The signs have been out there in the culture for more than 30 years indicating where this is all headed. Men who ignored those signs, or were too thick to realize what they meant, had the chance to avoid what ended up happening to them, but chose not to. I saw those signs and have avoided most of the negative consequences of dealing with EMF women, and don't see any reason why they couldn't have done the same.
Yes, I agree that the system has mightily fucked them over. What I do not understand is why so many of them continue to support and defend the very system which did fuck them over.
I view the whole marriage/fatherhood and even dating issue much like I view the de-criminalization of marijuana. Marriage and fatherhood have been criminalized, and those who go ahead and choose to do it are doing it at their own risk. A lot of people take the same approach to smoking pot - they do it, and hope that they are one of the ones who get away with it without getting caught.
But, there is also a group of us for which the legal deterrent is significant enough to encourage us to refrain. Particularly when past experience with the criminalized activity has convinced us that it is marginally worth continuing even without the legal risk.
Now, there are a lot of issues on which I disagree with [certain member here]. But none of them are significant enough to be worth putting energy into creating conflict about and risking polarization because there is a far greater number of issues on which we are in total agreement. Since those are major issues for men, it makes more sense to spend time and energy looking for ways to cooperate and strengthen each other's efforts, instead of wasting a lot of time and energy, and creating animosity, by trying to prove to each other that we are right and he is wrong.
QUOTE: "Well this clarifies things, quite a bit.On the one hand we have the people who are worried about men's rights -- yes, the "system", the law, what it does to men in the workplace, in the family, in the school system, title ix and so on. Men's rights.
On the other hand we have whining little boys who never figured out how to get laid. MRA/MGTOW and so on is not about "I can't get laid, waaaah". No-one has the right to be chosen by women for relationships.
Whining about women's choices is insane. They are going to choose who they want, these days, and you can either become that, or avoid them, or go someplace where they make different choices.
Men need to realize this: women's behavior in the west is not going to change. At least not anytime soon."
Forty years ago, when I first encountered feminism, it seemed to me like a bunch of spoiled brats whining that they weren't getting their way and wanting the whole world to change so that they got what they wanted without having to follow the path everyone else had had to follow in order to get that.
Women wanted into the workplace, and a lot of men said "We don't think you really want that - the workplace is a pretty nasty and unpleasant place to be." But the women screamed "PATRIARCHY" and claimed that they were tough and could take it "just like a man" and could do anything a man could do, so they got let in and the first thing they started doing was screaming "But, this place isn't WOMAN FRIENDLY!!!!"
Um, no, it isn't. We told you that. That is why we said we didn't think you would like it.
Recent history since then has been one long push to legally require the world to change its nature to give women what they want and demand. It has only worked to a limited extent.
One of the fundamental foundations of feminism is absolute flat denial that there is such a thing as biological reality. We are seeing manifestations of that today with middle-aged women whining that they can't have children because they pissed away their most fertile years chasing careers and banging thugs.
It is that idea that the world is responsible for giving someone what they want, no matter how stupidly and stubbornly they deny reality, which is what I have been fighting against as I have fought against feminist thought.
So, yes, I have absolutely no empathy for men who engage in the same sort of thinking. When I saw it starting to emerge among men, I knew that I had lost everything I had been fighting for, and mostly quit being any sort of MRA.
QUOTE: "As for the system, those are other, legal issues, and they can be changed at least a bit on the margins. Unlikely, but much easier to do than changing the entire culture. And so that's what MRAs do. I don't think there's much hope of success, because men are too disunited (look at this forum) and women don't care about things until it directly impacts them."
And there, in 10 concise words, is the sum of the entire issue, the answer, and what needs to be our entire strategy. When this mess starts to directly and signifcantly hurt women, then and only then will they become motivated to do anything about it. And, when it does start to hurt them, men would not be able to do anything to stop them, even if men wanted to, and men won't have to do jack shit because women are champion whiners and naggers and men aren't even in the bush league.
QUOTE: "If you're not getting laid, there are things you can do about that -- you have options. Deal with them. You only get to live once, and being pissed that you were born at the wrong time is a piss-poor way to go through life."
When I first heard the insane notion that women in western cultures were "oppressed", I laughed it off. One of my favorite counter-examples when they bring up "male privilege" is the Battle of the Somme in WWI. Over a million men were dead, wounded, missing, or captured - most of them young, and most of them virgins.
So, yes, sorry I don't see "not getting laid" while living in a land of unbelievable luxury (by historical standards), being largely safe and free of the threat of conscription to force them to go to some foreign country to shiver in the mud and die or have their body torn apart, as being the worst thing that men have ever had to endure.
I can just imagine one of those scared boys, only a few weeks off the farm, whining to his commanding officer - "hey, those guys over there are shooting at me."
And, his commander replying "Well, yes they are, son. Now, what are you going to do to make sure you aren't on the receiving end of one of those bullets?"
There is a great old saying - "I was sad because I had no shoes, until I met a man who had no feet."
Every spiritual tradition has some form of "count your blessings." I'm sure that is because humans have a tendency to obsess about what they don't have that they want, and completely forget about how much they do have and how good their life really is.
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Friday, March 01, 2002
Zenpriest #60 - Why There Never Has Been Any Coherent "Men's Movement" and Why There Never Will Be
Labels: Wisdom of Zenpriest, Zenpriest