Sunday, February 17, 2002

Zenpriest #48 - Social Breakdown and Civil Disorder is More Likely

Re: A questionable male-female revenge story

QUOTE 1: I think the story is bogus, just a revenge fantasy.


QUOTE 2: Whether or not the story is bogus, it brings out inner conflicted dilemas many guys feel. On the one hand it is disturbing, yet on the other hand american women have gone so extreme that them receiving such medicine may not be out of line.

There is one femi nazi that I know and it would not bother me at all if she received the revenge treatment in the story. Yet there are are other more tame decent women that it would bother me immensly if such a thing happened to them.

These inner conflicted feelings many guys feel nowadays need to be sorted out so the MRA movement does not throw bread at stone --and stone at bread.


QUOTE 3: Putting aside my serious questions about the story's authenticity, I'm not sure what good it does to post it here at Mancoat. Certainly everyone has the right to review it and draw their own conclusions, but I think that publishing it on this forum casts its members and our goals in a negative light.


QUOTE 4: You're right about that. [The person who provided the story] has already posted that we're all a bunch of bloodthirsty savages. So I think he's testing that thesis by gauging our reactions to an inflammatory story.


QUOTE 5: "We sometime forget we are in a war. Feminists have taken off the gloves a long time ago. By men not taking off the gloves when needed [we've] only given feminists countless hours of laughs. Still it seems many members of this forum are in the illusion that feminists can be rectified and changed --fact is we are slowly but surely moving towards violence and an armed struggle."


Violence? perhaps. But not an armed "struggle". I speculate that social breakdown and civil disorder is more likely.

I'm kind of leaning toward [the] interpretation that this is a little Rorschach ink blot thrown out to see what people see in it.

The theme of "righteous vengeance" has been a popular one in American media for as long as I can remember. From films like "Rolling Thunder", the "Dirty Harry" series (Clint Eastwood), the "Death Wish" series (Charles Bronson), and dozens of other lesser known films with the same theme, it is only a small step to "The Burning Bed" and "Kill Bill." The impulse for revenge seems to be as deeply embedded in the human psyche as the need to eat and to mate.

One aspect of the story which stands out for me, but about which I haven't seen many comments, is that the guy is a dope dealer. This guy is a lowlife among lowlifes. His lifestyle is defined by doing something few guys here would approve of - selling drugs - so it shouldn't be surprising that he does other things which are outside the bounds of civil society.

What one lowlife does to another is mostly beyond my control, thus excessive concern about it is likely to be wasted. Such people have existed in every culture in the history of the world and I expect that they will continue to exist in every culture for the rest of history.

Here's one for your "how it used to be" file - both the guy and the skank in this story are a type of people who were completely ouside my realm of experience until I was in my late 20s. People like that existed in subcultures which were shunned by and isolated from normal civil society. When one thief or drug dealer shot another thief or drug dealer, the police did their best to solve the case, but in most cases it was a coin toss which lowlife shot the other - simply existing within civil society was some degree of insurance that such things would not happen to you or people you knew.

With the breakdown of social values, that insulation is going away. There were no Nathalee Holloways when I was growing up, because girls living within the protection of civil society were bound by the rules of civility which defined that group, and dictated that young women of age 18 did not go out at 1:00 am with anyone they did not know well, and in most cases were related to.

The point I am making here is that is as the social values which define civilization break down, we will see more and more of this. Preventing occurances of this nature were the entire reason for those values. Just as the physical body gets sick when the individual practices very bad health habits, so does society become sick when it ceases to practice good health habits.

"Sarah" was a monster, not a human being. Someone so cold and callous as to wish that someone killed themselves sooner is barbaric at the level of Ghengis Khan. By her attitudes and beliefs she put herself outside the bounds of civil society, and among the company of lowlifes. She puts herself beyond the protections which the social contract provides to those to abide by it. Actions and choices have consequences.

It's all well and good for guys here to try to take the moral high road and practice christlike forgiveness and forbearance, but what we ourselves do will have absolutely no effect on whether things like this story happen, or how often they happen.

I am sure that few, if any, members of Mancoat would actually do what this guy did, but the more significant and ominous implication is that I also would guess that few if any would care in the least what happened to this girl. I know that I personally would not.

I think that the real danger to women comes from their destruction of chivalry and the protective instinct of men. If this girl had had a father, he would have warned her very sternly against getting involved with this kind of guy, against the party lifestyle, and would have done whatever he could to keep her from becoming such a slut. If she had brothers or uncles, they would have done the same.

It is indicative and symtomatic of the cultural decay we see all around us that this girl was surrounded by men who did not give a shit about her. And, it is perfectly understandable from her own attitudes.

Whatever our opinion of this guy's story, regardless of what we do, I believe that more and more things like this will happen. Men who would have cared about her have been forced out of her life, and she herself alienated those future men who were forming their opinions of her and could have just as easily seen her as "what a great gal" instead of "what a horrible bitch."

I don't think that most women have a clue about what deep and bitter hatred for themselves which they are creating among men - young and old. I don't have a link to the story titled "The Screams of Women" about a boat sinking and things turning out very differently than the sinking of the Titanic - with men pushing women out of the lifeboats - but I'm sure someone here does. I think it was Darren Blacksmith on his cooltools4men blog who linked to an article about how men will no longer stop to help a female motorist with problems.

Whether the men here react to the viciousness, exploitation, and arrogance of women with hatred or indifference does not matter. Some men will react with hatred, and those men will be enough to make life very brutal and ugly for some women, while the indifferent men look the other way and go about their business.

Yes, I do see an unbelievable deep and bitter hatred toward women growing among a lot of men. And, the generation of marginalized and narcotized boys getting ready to be launched into the population as whole frankly scares the shit out of me.

But, my concern about it is limited to the effects it will have on men. I am cold as dry ice inside when I hear about the "suffering" of women, because it seems they "suffer" equally from a hangnail as from being roasted alive on a spit. The old story of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is getting ready to be played out on a culture-wide scale. There are no more heroes. There are no rescuers of damsels in distress left. Women have hated that part of most men to death.

So, Rich, if you are taking the temperature of the men here with that story, let me tell you what I think should be a lot more ominous and frightening than the rage and "hot" anger of some of these guys - the "cold" rage and indifference of men like me who will both argue against men getting caught up in the lust for vengeance (because of what it will do to the men), but at the same time turn my back on a woman who becomes the target of another man's rage.

To me, the key question regarding this story is - if I was an outside observer, watching this go on, would I lift a finger to stop it, and help her out?

The answer is - no, I wouldn't.

Remember, women "need" us like fish need bicycles. If she was stupid enough, and vile enough to get herself into this situation, then let her get herself out of it.

QUOTE: "It looks like 40 years of feminists trying to achieve 'progress for women' will in fact set women a good 4,000 years back."

I think that says it quite well.


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